The Latin Troika's Coup: what is left of the joy it generated a week later

The half life of joy and celebration, following Europe’s Summits, is continuing to slide. The 19th such Summit since the Crisis erupted was, as I wrote here, the most successful (in that it produced, for the very first time in two and a half years) a decision that is not wholly fraudulent, irrational and irrelevant. It was, in effect, a first, important step toward decoupling the insolvent banks from the insolvent states. However, already, the politicians of the surplus nations are clawing back the encouraging elements of this decision, after having buckled in front of the Latin troika (the spontaneous alliance of Italy, Spain and France). It is, thus, no surprise, that the post-Summit’s enthusiasm’s half life proved no longer than three days.

To get this agreement the Latin troika traded progress on growth and the financing of member-states that find it impossible to refinance themselves. For what exactly?  The Netherlands are asking for a Treaty change, in order to permit the ESM to inject capital directly into banks. Finland continues to demand collateral – an act of determined refusal to behave like a prospective member of a closer union. Germany’s CSU is threatening to bring Mrs Merkel down over the same issue. The German constitutional court is waiting in the wings. Greece, Ireland and Portugal are frozen out of this agreement by some remarkable argument in favour of double and treble standards. The vagueness over the timing of, and conditions for, the direct capital injections are threatening to turn this singularly good idea into a dead letter. In a sense, the Latin troika secured an agreement that may be confirmed in the total breach rather than the implementation. 

The most telling aspect of it all is the attitude of those critical of Mrs Merkel’s concessions to the Latin troika: Their take on it makes it spectacularly clear that they do not wish for the bank run in the Periphery to end or for the Periphery’s states to see spreads fall to manageable levels. Ergo, they are more than happy to see the eurozone perish. It is little wonder, then, that the markets have gone back to their pre-Summit gloom. 

101 Comments

  • “To get this agreement the Latin troika traded progress on growth and the financing of member-states that find it impossible to refinance themselves”

    They traded nada. They blackmailed Merkel to block the growth compact (which they had asked for because they need it) if Merkel won’t agree to finance ClubMed banks directly (which they had asked for because they need it). Merkel should have called it bluff and left the table immediately.

    “Their take on it makes it spectacularly clear that they do not wish for the bank run in the Periphery to end or for the Periphery’s states to see spreads fall to manageable levels”

    Wrong again. The contrary is true. All Germans want the bank run in the ClubMed to end, and the spreads goe down. Just, not with German taxpayers money, but on the ClubMed own cost.

    • vss

      For you what ever Merkel forces to others is ok and whenever the others take the opportunity to do the same is a blackmail.

    • I am afraid Serious Sam is right. There is no will in Germany and Holland to give more money. It is not an discussion, it is a fact. Samaras can cry, shout, yell, scream and
      shriek but he will get noting than a few bones for the dogs…
      But professor, the problem in Holland was not that we are asking for a Treaty change, the problem is that we are waiting for the elections and that our prime minister is very popular but can’t count.. He doesn’t understand a clou of economics! But he is doing his job fine in the eyes of most Dutch! We have no economic problems here and want to keep it that way!
      Sorry. With or without Greece. Italy and Spain is an other matter.
      I think it is better to for Greece to go bankrupt and that we are giving aid to the Greek PEOPLE.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Rutte

      Best regards, Martin

    • I agree with you. Greece should have been allowed to default – within the eurozone. And whatever monies were provided by the Dutch people ought to have been given to the banks (to stop from from folding) in exchange for shares that the Dutch taxpayers should keep till their value rebounded sufficiently for Dutch taxpayers to recoup their tax euros. Do you know why this was not allowed to happen? Because existing bank major shareholders would lose control of the banks. And since they control your politicians and ours, they got their way, forcing Dutch taxpayers to cater for the bank owners’ needs supposedly in the context of ‘solidarity’ with the… Greek people!

    • Ah the ClubMed!

      I can’t begin to describe to you how difficult things are down at the ClubMed. Temperatures are rising. How is the weather in Germany these days?

    • (Respons posting 16.09) Exactly professor. It is absolute nonsense to send such a small country what is only 2% of the turnover of the EU out of the eurozone. It is also absolute nonsense to have the illusion that Greece is ever abel to pay back the money stupid politicians borrowed by listening to “golden boys” with there immoral solutions. We must chance our minds in the North. We must INVEST in the Greek PEOPLE, not in the America invest banks with there crazy products. And we must INVEST in the greek young people. If we are going the way we are going your talented student will serve my coffee here in Holland as a waiter. Both countries will lose. We must find a win-win situation and NOT only by money but also by no-how. If we don’t give any hope to the Greek people it is impossible to ask so much sacrifice. I am ashamed how some people here of the VERY rich county’s are talking about the situation of most of the greek population. Maybe I know Greece to well to talk in such a stupid way.

    • Around 30° & sunny. In South Poland and western Slovakia & eastern Czech republic it was around 35° and sunny.

      I went there (CZ) for a due diligence to aqcuire a line of business. Funny note: All Germans, Slovaks, Czechs & Polish agreed that is is far easier to do business among each other than with e.g. France. One guy even said he had to force his people to travel to France, while when they need to go to Poland they jump in the plane at once!

      Looks like we need a split of the EU (not just the Euro). One North East and one South + France. Italy will be split into 2. Everthing north of Venice will join the north and the South will have to go to the French led block.

    • Yanis, you have me totally confused now. Your reply to martin,Holland (16:09) is 1:1 the argument I have made since the beginning (if you can’t pay, reschedule with existing creditors. If that chances default, then it does. If that gets banks into trouble, then it does and their governments will have to do something about that). That’s what I learned 30 years ago how external payments crises of countries are dealt with.

      But isn’t that totally inconsistent with that part of the MP which would at the outset have transferred the debt of Greece to the ECB? While the primary purpose of that is to lower the interest cost, it is also a fact that, that way, private creditors get off the hook (risk takers do not remain risk carriers).

      It’s too late now, anyway, because the bulk of private risk has already been transferred to the pockets of tax payers (under the wonderful title of “help for Greece”) but to have allowed that to happen is, in my opinion, the prodigal sin of the whole thing.

      The official creditors, in my opinion, are there to arrange the Fresh Money the country needs for its ongoing operations (budget and current account deficit) but not to take private creditors off the hook. In a bank like Deutsche, the domestic lenders who have to sweat out their problems and take losses can only marvel how easily their international colleagues get off the hook!

    • Dear Klaus, I see your point. But here is my answer: In Modest Proposal 1.0 (the original version – see http://varoufakis.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/a-modest-proposal-yv-and-sh-version.pdf) we had proposed that a portion of the public debt (which was owed by the insolvent states to insolvent Euro Area banks) should be written off in exchange for capital and liquidity to be provided by the Eurozone to the banks. Our suggestion was that a grand negotiation is held between the EZ-ECB, the states and the banks. That would have been a rational way of dealing with the combined public debt and banking losses overhang for a currency union that is effectively an economic confederacy. However, as debt was transferred from the banks to the northern European taxpayer (through the three original bailouts – Greece, Ireland and Portugal), we moved on to the newer versions of the Modest Proposal not so much because we changed our mind regarding Version 1.0 but in order to keep our proposal as palatable to the powers that be as possible. Alas, the powers that be continued on their catastrophic course. Once Greece came completely off the tracks, then I started suggesting that, in the absence of the a Eurozone-wide solution, Greece should be allowed to default and the chips be allowed to fall anyway they may. At that point, you and I started singing from the same hymn book. However, I still think that the Modest Proposal, or something along those lines, points the way toward a long term, sustainable, global (as opposed to local) solution.

    • NEUD:

      Yes, we read Hitler’s plan for eastward vital space.

      So what you telling us is that for the last 75 years the plan remains the same?

    • n eu d

      Are you really serious with what you wrote there above?

      How about a thermonuclear war so we escape any problem once and for all?

    • (Reaction 15.29)
      Again exactly professor. The problem from the starting was that our politicians not only didn’t have a clou about economics, the had also had no clou about the REAl situation in Greece!
      So they started to pay…..and pay.. and thinks in Greece got worser…

      They thought that with a little of money the problem was solved in 1 year!

      The only solution is indeed global, send the debts back to sender!

      And if the problem is back were it belongs, (if you robber the bank with a pistol like the banks did with Greece you go to prison), than you must find a solution for the banks, NOT payed by the taxpayer. The taxpayer must pay to INVEST in Greece. Now it is a gift to the banks.

      Shares for money is a brilliant idea, we can make the firms more efficient, invest in it…. voilà, our win win situation…

      You can split up the banks and drop the bad parts in bad banks. You can neutralize the damage by the EBC. You can let them go to hell with there credit-default swaps. Try to get your money! Something creative. Don’t forget it is only stupid money…

      If I look to ERT I only see hopeless people how don’t know what to do, your country needs our know-how, lots of it I think. Maybe more than our money…

      (By the way, about emotion like the second world war, the Germans destroyed also half of Holland, but that is not the point, we are good neighbors and friends now a day.)

      Best regards, your sincerely Martin.

    • Demetri “Are you really serious with what you wrote there above?”

      I do not know which part you refer to. But yes, many people in business have the perception that business within the region close to the alps plus Poland, CZ & CZ is very smooth. As soon as you involve the French or any other ClubMEd country it becomes a hassle. It is a feeling not facts, but from all the German companies I have seen, if I would pull out the suppliers by country there would be close to zero from Italy south of Venice, but many from North of Venice, almost no French, tons of CZ, SK & PL.

    • n eu d

      Oh ,ok sorry.

      Yes it is another proof that people are not acting like in a EU.
      And the fact that the EU didn’t function as it should not only didn’t change that but made things worst now.

      But the idea of the EU was for the betterment of all.
      We do not have to give up on that.
      So what should we fight for? To better the system finally ,or to go back to the old stupid dividing lines?

      For me the answer is clear but i also accept that things today have become that bad ,that in the minds and feelings of people only negativity resides.

      Anyway ,some kind of disintegration has already occured and maybe more is to come. I just hope that this disintegration will not reach personal extremes.

    • Good ideas do not always work out in practice (example: socialism, monogamy). If one designs a system that will collaps if the participants do not act like one wishes it was a bad design.

    • n eu d

      Yes it was. And more than that. But they knew and left it like that while they said otherwise.

      When they decided to form the union they said it will be an economic and currency union.
      That was the BIG lie. It was never an economic union. Only a currency union. And this is what created all the distortions.

      If it was a proper economic union what you refered above ,economic dividing lines ,wouldn’t have existed.

      One wonders. Ok ,we accept the fact that now they attack Greece and other southerns for their mistakes. Doesn’t anybody understand that these mistakes were the natural result of their european leadership distortions? They fed these mistakes.

      Why don’t they attack those that didn’t adhere to the other laws of economic union? Because they didn’t mind.

      You see what you refered above is also a crime in the EU if the EU was functioning properly. So why do they use as a criterion for problems only the debt of the southerns? Why didn’t they “reform” the trade relations?
      Because this way they acquired more wealth.
      And now that there is problem in the system ,they found their solutions on the problems of the southerns.

      They never hurt those with the money. And the transfer of resources from the core to the periphery is a bogus transfer right now. Just for the eyes of the people.

  • Just as addition. In Germany at least the ARD market experts wrote already a week ago something in the lines of what you say – DAX first went up to 6385. Commerzbank managers foretold it would go “back to their pre-Summit gloom” soon. And it did. Article (german) is here–>boerse.ard.de/content.jsp?key=dokument_621326

    Many of the people who went to the german constitutional court are in no way against your ideas.
    Maybe you think about ideas like from Mr. Sinn, people like him asking constitutional court (following an older post here)?
    At the moment he is not going to court. Those who try now, are, so to speak, Syriza-friendly people mainly (Tsipras met the “Linke”, of course occupy is all for the fight against ESM and fiscal pact).
    In short, if democracy would still live, a european parliament would for the first time be strong and a welfare state for all were „Europe“ – they were, as far as I get it, happy. As long as „Europe“ means what we see, behind-door-policy, Merkel and more rule with neoliberal policy, those people will fight, just like occupy does.

    Concerning Seehofer (CSU) – he is, just like Merkel, a real populist. The difference being that Merkel in the end always prefers the “market-conform democracy” (which is no democracy at all), even if her speeches sounded different in 2008.
    Merkel, far more intelligent, after a pollster searches to find a way to make people believe she’d act like they want it, in reality most of the time changing nothing at all. If she is forced to, she will try to get back to her first idea after the crowd forgot the little rage, if economy is involved. (She is performing 180-degree-turns in other areas to stay in power, but that’s another part of politics than what we discuss here.)

    Seehofer talks what he thinks a majority would like – directly after a poll. Next month he would tell you we should stop with our northern arrogance and at last start to face reality in “the periphery” – if, unlikely enough, any pollster would get such a result somewhere. This, like what Seehofer says now, is of no importance at all.
    The man was a kind of right-wing-welfare-politician once, secretary in the Merkel great coalition. Simply an extremely dishonest populist now.

    Merkel is dishonest, unfair, but intelligent and the perfect networker behind doors. She saw what you named a first good result as her personal defeat. Even if no Merkel would ever admit that in public. Our media, always in favour of her, just re-wrote that “Merkel-defeat” into a kind of victory. Nobody here cares. (old postmodern “we inscene ourselves new every week”-idea.).
    What you wish for in your modest proposal or in your great ideas for Europe will never ever be what Merkel wants. So don’t fear Seehofer. Fear right wing people like old BDI-president Henkel, or Sinn, read what the mighty german companies want (there are indeed differences, the 20 richest companies aim for different things than the “Mittelstand”).
    Don’t even think about Seehofer. If Merkel and all who share her ideas would not want the same, it would never happen.

    • Spot on.
      Same motive, for the third time in a century. What the (same) mighty companies want…

      Baldrich cunning plan, money fleeing from the perphery to the center, spreads high in the periphery, lower than ever in the center. What has been done was (on purpose) always too litle, too late. This will go on until all the periphery passes the point of no return (only Greece is beyond this point so far).

      This way the center of Europe will switch from Brussels to Berlin.

      From the representation of every country as (ok, ok) equal to the dictatorship of the fat frau.

  • Will the breach tell us other thing different from the Eurosystem configured as a single currency system will never be a steady-state configuration?

    The frontiers of nationhood and statehood lie exactly where people are willing or are not willing to go with temporally unlimited transfers of real wealth among regions. If they do not want to go then different currencies are necessary.

    Of course transitory union-like measures would be welcome to get the EZ as a whole out of recession. For example, a reconfiguration of the Eurosystem. Materially speaking this a bit of a software upgrade.

    It is a pain that people is dying because collectively people in the EZ does not to get some computer bits to the right values.

  • Now David Cameron is threating that he will close British borders to Greeks of a Grexit happens! Like Greek immigrants are going to be the number one problem of GB if a euro-meltdown starts….Yeah sure! Just another member of the political elite looking for the scapegoat to feed the mases with…Sorry but the scapegoat cannot feed the milions of angry and hungry Europeans after the meltdown…What the f**k is going on in European leaders’ minds? No-one cannot see the big picture? Do they really believe that each european nation alone will make it through the next day? Retards and bastards driving each other to acts of war…destroying us and our children!

    • Cameron is no leader. He is an overprivileged asshole who was not chosen as PM (it is a coalition government) who sees that both his economic and political strategies are failing. Like the miserable failure of Papandreou, he then turns to some populist idea to maintain his position.

      Disregard his crap. He does not have the support of the British people; nor does any EU country have the legal right to abrogate the rights of European Citizenship granted by the Maastricht Treaty. These rights include those of free movement and settlement: the UK would be humiliated in the European Court of Justice and all the Greeks affected could sue the UK for damages.

      I repeat: the guy is an asshole.

  • “Ergo, they are more than happy to see the eurozone perish”

    Yes we do!

  • If you think about it, it’s truly remarkable that the false hope effect lasted for 3 days. Usually within 3 hours global markets punt and the ball returns back to Merkel’s court.

    I think I am going to pour myself a Margadita:

    • You are 100% right. Education, democracy, good organisation and a litle bit of luck are the ingridients of a good rich life.

  • Irrelevant for this blog but yet again relevant for everything.

    —————

    So i see the world

    Every Monday at 23:45 on ET3 ,a new scientific show will be broadcasted. The presenters are the known astrophysicists Manos Danezis and Stratos Theodosiou.

    This new series explores how our culture is shaped by scientific discoveries, and ultimately our world is changed. Aims to understand the fact that the fundamental basis of developing a culture consists of three basic concepts: matter, time and space. The context in which we use these concepts has each time a profound impact on a series of answers to philosophical questions, such as where we come from ,where we go and what is our purpose in this world.

    Our era is at the dawn of dramatic reversals and of major upheaval. It is a fact that new ideas will prevail and we will witness significant reversals in societies, as we know them today. In the first episode of “So I see the world,” Monday, July 2, 2012, at 23:45, we will monitor how the revolutionary overthrow of scientific ideas, valid till today ,would affect the structure and evolution of the theological, and political systems that currently exist everywhere.

    We are immediately called to take the first steps of this dynamic cultural reconstruction and the show presents this “invitation”.

    http://www.inews.gr/189/dialogos–etsi-vlepo-ton-kosmo-dyo-nees-seires-stin-et3.htm

    http://www.eef.gr/enimerosi/305–3.html

    —————-

    In the first episode they refered to the three pilars of civilization. Theological systems ,political systems and scientific systems.
    The scientific systems have evolved but the other two systems ,fearing falsely their destruction ,refuse to change and try to preserve the status quo with its scarce mentality ,which only pain has caused in this world.

    There are three choices.
    Either the other two systems evolve or we face the deconstruction of our modern “civilization” with its acquired but also unjust in a way advantages over other “civilizations”. Or we just never evolve past a certain point and keep preserving the scarce mentality and any imbalances created around the globe. We have reached this point.

    As i see things ,there is only one truth and the name of it is: The Flow.

    Enjoy the show.

  • Barclays LI(E)BOR Premier League:

    BTMU
    Bank of America
    Barclays
    JPM Chase
    Citibank
    CFSB
    Deutschbank
    HBOS
    HSBC
    Lloyds
    Norinchukin
    Rabobank
    Royal Bank of Canada
    Royal Bank of Scotland
    UBS AG
    West LB

    The lawsuits will be legion over alleged losses from holding securities based on LIBOR.

    Seriously … If you can’t trust a bankster, whom can you trust?

    • Sure i wonder the same thing. How will i possibly live without trusting a bankster?
      Tough life ,eh?

  • After reading this and some other articles these days, I don’t really know why but I was trying to find a joke that captures the situation.

    Here is what I came up with: a joke with Nasreddin Hotza.

    One day, a thief came to the house of Hodja and took everything he had except the blanket which covered him. When Hodja saw the thief carrying all his things away, he put his blanket over his shoulders and followed him. When the thief arrived at his own house, he turned back and saw Hodja. “What are you doing here?” he asked. “What am I doing here,” said Hodja, “you ask a thing like that? Didn’t we move to this house?”

  • “… those critical of Mrs Merkel’s concessions….. are more than happy to see the eurozone perish.”

    Yes, in Germany there are two opinions how to proceed, that’s normal. By beating Merkel you are supporting those critical of her. Go ahead. It will give left wing radicals in Greece a chance too.

    But only THE DAY AFTER.

  • I’ve read a report about Chania, Veria and Thessaloniki. The mayors there managed to significantly improve the financial and social situation of their cities. Interestingly, they didn’t achieve this by just begging for more subsidizing, as the Greek political ‘elite’ and quite a few commenters here seem to see as the only way.

    No, they did what THEY THEMSELVES could. And surprise: they were successful. Role models for Greece, these Greeks should be.

    • They are.

      And they are not the only examples.
      As we have said again. If things get worst ,more local systems will be created.

      BUT ,as we have said again ,again ,most commentators in here do NOT beg for more subsidizing.

      We accept the idea of a European Union ,when this will function as it should and not as a tool for more corruption.

      The betterment of the system and the control of the transfers is in no way begging and is surely not immoral and wrongly used subsidizing.

      All the problems have been caused till now ,exactly because they transfered and used the money for corruption mostly.

      The minute the transfers are better controlled ,noone will have to worry about “taxpayer’s money”.

      Why don’t you want that?
      It is better for you to not take the chance to control the banks but destroy the idea of Europe’s integration?

      We have to fight for something better ,not something worst.
      Thinking that the EU is against the interests of the people is wrong. The use of the union was the problem. Not the idea.

      Instead of evolving you want us to go back ,because certain someones ,said that the initial and only problem was the sovereign debt and that the taxpayers of the North pay? And that in the interests of the people ,governments should adopt policies that their taxpayers stop paying for the debt of others when this is all a distraction from the real problems and only for the people to feel that they have been fooled by the south ,while their own governments fool them by covering all the real problems?

      Maybe these governments won enough and now they do not mind if the EU is destroyed.

      Is that what you want? Because if that is what you want then say so clearly but do not act like you do not understand what we are saying in here.

    • Very Serious Sam what you are not realizing is that those politicians are really the people supported by your politicians and your big business. They do it not for the Greeks, but for your big business through your politicians.
      To tell you the trough I support the Fins and Germans to get out of Europe. They really don’t belong there.

    • No idea what you are talking about, other than to note that you say nothing other than polemical propaganda and the places concerned are not typical of the Greek economy. However, if you care to explain what report, who wrote it, what the analysis is, etc. then maybe it is of interest.

      Until then, NEIN.

  • Finland Threatens to Leave Euro-Zone:

    Finland stood out for asking for collateral from Greece and later Spain. Now, Finland’s finance minister Jutta Urpilainen heightened the tone regarding the situation in the euro-zone and hinted that Finland would rather leave the zone than pay others’ debts.

    http://www.forexcrunch.com/finland-threatens-to-leave-euro-zone/

    Great! Finally a country that acts how it should: In the interest of the people.

    • You really think it acts in the interest of the people?
      Read my answer to vss below.

    • It’s Not That the Euro Will Fail, It’s That It Should Fail
      That the euro has failed as a method of increasing the wealth and happiness of the European population seems difficult to contradict at present. That it will then fail to hold together seems equally difficult to contradict. The much more important point though is that it ought to fail: for it was an extremely silly thing to have done in the first place.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/05/09/its-not-that-the-euro-will-fail-its-that-it-should-fail/

      Nigel Farage on FOX NEWS America – EUROLAND One Giant Ponzi Scheme

    • flippa

      Well ,yeah i can’t really disagree with Farage on that.
      If they can not fix the system we will return to nation-states anyway.

      I am more concerned about people knowing the truth finally and understanding what a “bailout” really is when they talk about Greece.
      Farage explained well when he talked about taxpayers paying for the banks ,a european ponzi scheme and having to “bailout” Greece for that ponzi scheme to go on.

      In this blog we have said ,NO MORE BAILOUT.
      So ,till a point we agree.

      And when the Dutch people make their minds ,i hope they will make their minds having things in the right perspective.

      I am afraid many people still do not understand ,that we support the European Idea ,not the way it functioned till today. Two different things.

      Voting for Greece to get out ,will not solve the problem.
      but if the problem is never solved ,the EU will cease to exist anyway.
      Voting for them to get out will not solve the problem anyway ,although it is understandable why they want that. As long as they know what the Greek “bailout” really is.

      Farage said “We do not want harm for the Greek people but they should understand that they should get out”. That is a very limited opinion.
      As i said ,we support the European Idea ,not the way it functioned till now.

      I would have prefered if Farage had repeated at the end ,when he was talking about Greece ,that they do not bailout Greece. To connect what he said at the beginning about taxpayers paying for the banks with the Greek bailout.
      Because when they refer to Greece separately ,people think they do bailout Greece for Greece ,although Farage said more before that.

      Now do not get me wrong. I am not saying that people are stupid and do not connect the dots. But many people just settle in taking everything in separately.

      The Dutch people should decide with the understanding that Greece was harmed even more with the bailouts and that the problem is not the bailouts as an idea but the fact that they are not for Greece.
      If they want to be just ,they will really not want to harm Greece any more than it is already harmed.

      How is that possible?
      By destroying the EU or by controlling the flow and stop Europe from functioning as a Ponzi scheme?

      Who will pay for the damages caused in Greece ,with money that will really go to Greece and without taxpayers of other countries worrying about it? if you think we can not have a win-win situation you are fooling yourself ,but people must understand that.

      And frankly ,this is unlikely.
      So ,
      tick -tock ,big-bang ,tick-tock ,big-bang.

  • Germans Urged to Block Merkel on Integration:

    About 160 academics published a petition Thursday calling on German citizens to put pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkel to block any further moves toward European integration that would make German taxpayers foot the bill for the debts of other euro-zone countries.

    Finally some honest people trying to stop the robbery:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303962304577508810223548148.html?mod=rss_europe_whats_news

    • Good.
      As long as we perceive the notion of robbery the same way.

      Because the robbery has everything to do with wrong energy use by your own government and nothing to do with the south and the natural transfers. For use in the economy ,not for corruption as they all did till now.

    • I support the 160 academics. Germany should get out of Europe. I don’t remember any other thing that Germans did than killing, plunder and pain.

    • We await German exit from the eurozone. Since this is the only logical outcome, one can only assume that either these academics have no grasp of economics or are set on destroying the idea of Europe. Do you really think that Germany is a competitive economy without the rest of Europe?

    • “Do you really think that Germany is a competitive economy without the rest of Europe?”

      Yes, becaue the rest (if defined as the South) is only a drag on ressources and a place of inefficient capital allocation. For Poland, Slovakia & CZ it is a totally different story. They are important.

    • @No EU: I suggest you study some serious economics, if you think that. There are very few professional economists who share that view, and most of them are idiot Germans. Perhaps you get your information from propaganda sources: I do not.

    • @No EU
      I do not disagree that Germany is fragile and endangered by some of the proposed solutions. However, that does not mean that autarky is possible, nor does it mean that the current absurd trajectory being pursued by Merkel is in the interests of Germans.

      You need a more sophisticated analysis for what is a serious structural issue of the European Union. Nationalistic propaganda is not a policy.

    • n eu d

      Ofcourse i understand the worries of the Germans. But it is evident that they are not well informed.

      The article you present ,refers to the just anger of the Germans and how they can destroy the world again because they are pressured.

      Well that is not a compliment. Far from it.

      And the just anger of the Germans is a mislead anger.
      Yes now there is no guarantee from the southerns. NOW.
      When there was ,Germany earned a lot. It is not an exaggeration.

      To us it seems like you are trying to escape your own responsibilities after you gained from the EU.

      Remember that the markets are also about confidence. What would have happened if your media hadn’t defamated the southerns and your Merkel hadn’t tried that hard to cover the banksters?

      A compromise could have been found and we wouldn’t be here now.

      Once more. It is not the transfering of the money ,but the USE of the money that creates the problems. And the flow IS NOT CONTROLLED BY THE SOUTHERNS. Period.

      The more time it passes with the same policies ,the less quarantees you will have from the southerns.

      You create the most problems now for the whole continent and you excuse yourselves behind the risks assumed if you help the southerns which risks you yourselves increased.

      Instead of destroying the EU ,you get out. Why don’t you?
      You will keep all the earnings from the Ponzi scheme you loved to participate in while it was working and will not foot any bill for others.

      Go on.

    • The statement that Germans (not owners of ecport companies) gained from the Euro is complete nonsense. Look at the rank of Germyn in terms of GPD per capity over time…

    • n eu d

      Again get yourself together man.
      I am not talking about any German in any class.

      This also should ring some more bells in your head.

      There are many inequalities even in Germany. Averages lie.
      Ofcourse many didn’t earn. But the official Germany did. And kept earning during the crisis ,maybe still is.

      But not for long. And it is not the German elite that will get hurt.

      Exactly because Germany as a state functioned better ,you are all still very willing to believe that the crisis is the fault of a whole but small nation.

      The fact is ,your government kept you a little happier while sucking dry the citizens of other countries with the cooperation of their elite.

      The problem is one and only one. Not profligacy ,not lazy Greeks ,not tax evasion ,not lack of reforms ,not any deficit ,not any debt.

      Only the banks and especially the German banks. Period.
      Not that it matters that they are German. It just happens that the worst are in Germany. Maybe for no particular reason.

      Wake up once and for all in Germany and see that there are no Greeks to blame. THE ELITE HAS NO NATIONALITY.

      Whatever you’ve been told about the Greeks is a lie or a distorted half-truth. And you know it. And you still want to present in this blog ,some numbers in isolation. For what? To cover your government?

      You are so brainwashed.

      ome on man. I’ll buy you a beer. And yes i ‘ve got the money to buy you a beer. The troika left me some. And they are MY MONEY. 🙂

      Also ,are you a trader or an investor? Do you have a site or you participate in one for traders?

    • “you are all still very willing to believe that the crisis is the fault of a whole but small nation”

      No the EU elite and the EURO is the problem. Not Greece. So if one naton would be to blame it would be the French. They run the EU and they forced the Euro on everyone.

      And no I am not a trader, I still need to work, but I invest much more than I spend. None of these investments were made in the EU the last 2 years. My favorite site is http://www.fool.com. My favorite book is “The millionaire next door”

  • Banks were created by the people by putting the money there.The bank gangs take the people’s money and they invest it to the politicians,governments,businesses and create a system that grow their profits and create debts to the people whos money was used to create the bank who later rob and enslave them.So who is guilty here the people who feed the monster or the monster who eat the people,the creators of the monster? Now the monster is so big that can’t be killed because it does own all the planet…but the people are the big losers and victims who need to deal with their big monster,the bank

    • This Cypriot guy Vassos Shiarly could be your twin brother, Dean. Beause like you, he refuses to accept responsiblity for the consequences of what he and his fellow cypriots did and omitted. And he is as well very creative in devising tricky finance engineering solutions which would put the bill for said mistakes onto others. This is lame, oh so lame.

    • vss

      Without German mentors and their actions ,such corruption would have never been possible.

      This is lame, oh so lame.

    • V-SSam:

      Let me get this straight. So what you are saying is when Germany introduced arbitrary austerity rules which increased our debt-to-GDP ratio from 112% at the beginning of the crisis to 180% now, this is somehow the fault of the Greeks?

      What logic is this?

      So when you go into a restaurant and you start smashing everything in site, you then blame the restaurant owner for positioning things in the wrong place?

      This is absolutely preposterous!

      Which part of Germany has viciously wrecked the Greek economy don’t you understand? And which part of no way Germany could walk away from the scene of the crime without paying a very large sum don’t you understand also?

    • Dean, even if your logic is right, it’s only half of the truth.

      1. The restaurant owner asked the person which smash everything in site to come into his restaurant and he knew the person will behavior this way.

      2. The restaurant owner can dismiss the person which smash everything in site anytime.

    • @Dean

      Which part of ‘Cyprus (like Greece) has to accept the consequences of what it started’ is it that you don’t understand?

      Which is in both cases: an unsustainable business model. In the case of Cyprus, it was an overinflated banking sector, very comparable to what Island had. But unlike Island, Cyprus could not devalue her currency since she has no own, and kick them banksters out.

      As for Greece: she was bankrupt like 98% of her existence. Of course, also thanks to an unsustainable business model (overinflated public sector which doesn’t function at all, nationwide refusal to pay the due taxes (on all levels, but mostly so at the ‘elites’), partially outrageous constituion (for instance article 107)…)

      Al this is NOT anybody elses doing. You yourself did it, period. Grow up and accept reality, only then can there be a start for a better future. As long as you just howl and blame others for what you did (and didn’t), you’ll continue to lose, as a person and as a society.

    • VSS:

      Cyprus is not about fiscal deficits. It’s about refinancing existing loans which is how the Greek crisis started. Because the markets have assigned punitive rates because Merkel destroyed the Cypriot banking system.

      Talking about a real idiot this woman of yours.

  • Again exactly professor. The problem from the starting was that our politicians had except from the fact that they didn’t have a clou about economics, the had also had no clou about the REAl situation in Greece!
    So they started to pay…..and pay.. and thinks in Greece got worser…

    They thought that with a little of money the problem was solved in 1 year!

    The only solution is indeed global, send the debts back to sender!

    And if the problem is back were it belongs, (if you robber the bank with a pistol like the banks did with Greece you go to prison), than you must find a solution for the banks, NOT payed by the taxpayer. The taxpayer must pay to INVEST in Greece. Now it is a gift to the banks.

    (By the way, about emotion like the second world war, the Germans destroyed also half of Holland, but that is not the point, we are good neighbors and friends now a day.)

    • Dear martin,
      I have no problem with the German.
      The policy though that is imposed today by Germany to Greece is hunn like. Hunns, as nomads didn’t care about the future of the places they conquered. Killed the men, raped the women,took alk food they could carry, took the gold. Usually the places they visited were erased from the map…
      The argument on the other hand that Greeks are as hunn as the Germans… try a little harder.

  • (Reaction 15.29) Send the debts back to sender, the banks professor. Global. And solve than the problems in the banks by splitting them up and sinking the bad parts. And let the tax payer INVEST in South Europe, than we are willing to help also with know-how.

    (If I look to ERT I only see hopeless people how don’t know what to do, your country needs know-how, lots of it. Maybe more than our money…

    Best regards, your sincerely Martin.

    • Dear Martin, Holland:

      Greece desperately needs expertise within its political system. There is plenty of expertise, even in Greece, but the two political parties don’t want such people. They prefer to destroy Greece, thinking that this is to their advantage.

      However, Europe also desperately needs more expertise in its management of the euro crisis and banking system. The political floundering and nationalistic propaganda are a disgrace and threaten the very future of the continent. I do not think the rest of Europe has much to offer Greece in terms of competence.

    • (Reaction 14.35)
      Dear xenos,
      Of course Europe desperately needs more expertise in its management of the euro crisis and banking system. But I don’t know if it is only more expertise. I think more a matter of common sense. I am only an interested citizen of Holland. But in my opinion a child can understand that if you don’t get the debts who nobody ever can pay get out of the balances of the country’s and send it back to sender (the banks) you will never get an solution! And than you can neutralize the debts by splitting up the banks, let the EBC neutralize them or trow them in the see!

      Best regards, Martin

    • Martin, Holland

      You appear not to understand that the reason Greece was not allowed to reorganise its debts (paying some now, rescheduling others) with its creditors is because northern Europe refused. Greece is in this mess to save you and your banks.

      So, feel free to comment on the lack of expertise in Greece. I can agree. But do not talk about common sense: this is solely an issues of political power (and a half-witted Greek prime minister) that fucked Greece’s chances of recovery. In other words, the incompetent handling of the post-1998 situation is entirely the fault of northern Europe. Moreover, the structural mess of the eurozone is also the fault of northern Europe.

      Again, feel free to blame the Greek politicians for their mismanagement. But do not blame them for the mismanagement, incompetence and sheer abuse of power that emanated from northern Europe.

    • Dear Guest (xenos)
      You write: “In other words, the incompetent handling of the post-1998 situation is entirely the fault of northern Europe.”

      I think you are making it a little easy. First of all, there is no simple, single “post 1998 situation” in my eyes.

      There were different phases – at least the following (but that’s my personal opinion):

      1. Initial Phase 1999 – 2007 (everybody happy, world economy growing, cheap credit for e.g. Greece, debt nevertheless accumulating, nice party)

      2. Financial Crisis 2008-2009 (Lehman brothers, etc – party over)
      3. The Euro mess from 2010 onwards

      By throwing everything together things become impossible to analyze.

      Phase 1 was brilliant for everyone. So it seemed. Even Greece looked ok on paper. But as we know now, Greek statistics were at least partly faked. But no doubt the increase in debt stimulated the Greek economy, so the Debt / GDP ratio remained pretty stable. So way too high, but at least it looked under control. And the economy was growing, so it seemed that the debt was getting maybe more managable in the long turn.
      What we know now, unfortunately, is that in fact, the windfall through the lower interest rates should have been used by Greece for lowering the debt. Plus there should have been more efforts to make the government / Administration more efficient and increasing the growth potential of the economy by other means than credit (e.g. structural reforms). I think it is not easy to blame Germany or northern Europe as a whole for this. It was the whole point of the Euro that countries like Greece would benefit by lower interest rates on the assumption that gently, they would move towards a “northern European” style of government and economy. The downside for e.g. Greece was that, with a common currency, there was no longer an easy way out in times of too much debt or an uncompetitive economy. For that very reason, the Maastricht treaty contained clauses about government debt (which Greece did not comply with and cheated about in terms of faking statistics). In terms of the tax collection mechanism in Greece, I don’t many people in Germany had any idea how bad it was. The general impression about countries like Spain and also Greece was that they were catching up. I personally was very surprised to hear that the modern Greece was only a facade with a pretty rotten 19th century governmant apparatus underneath. How can you blame Germany for that??

      The second phase (financial crisis 2008-2009) I believe was handled as well as could reasonably be expected. It was a major crisis and all major powers and institutions struggled to understand it and did their best keeping the global financial system from complete collapse which was a major success in my eyes.

      The Euro Crisis which we all have been witnessing since 2010 is a different matter. Here, I would agree that northern Europe bears some responsibility. But on the other hand, to say that it was entirely “northern Europe’s” fault is childish.
      Greece is a sovereign country. It can make decisions such as increasing debt, maintaining a crony economy and also to not brutally reform when it becomes clear that the previous growth model had collapsed. The elite in Greece must have been able to realize 2008 (latest 2009) that there was a major problem. For that Greece, having overstimulated its economy with debt, could not afford a recession. But now, with the global financial crisis, the recession was there and it was about to hit Greece like it hit the others.
      That was the latest point where a responsible Greek government could have (and should have) done their very best to try to manage a difficult situation the best they could. But they chose to insist “the money is there” or something like that. Delaying to the max. Then, in 2010 going forward when it really was obvious for a blind person to see that this was crashing, the tactics was again: Delay, delay, delay. And do as little as possible as late as possible internally (still no tax administration that works, no land register, etc). All this is the fault of Northern Europe??

    • (Reaction 2.15)
      Dear xenos,

      I completely agree. Northern Europe and Eurostat were asleep.
      The Euro in this form was a huge mistake. Neither did we help ourselves nor the Greeks with this noncens-money. I don’t know if it was mismanagement, incompetence and sheer abuse of power, I think this project in this from never had a chance.
      And if you can blame the Greek prime minister for this…. I don’t know. And is SYRIZA was an better alternative? I don’t think so. In fact there is no easy solution for Greece at the moment because there is no will in the north to pay for the (Greek) damage. Greece is no big economic power. That is a fact…

      Best regards, Martin.

    • @Martin (not Holland!)
      The “1998” is an [intellectual] typo: I meant 2008.

      Of course, the seeds of the disaster lay in 1998 when France and Germany chose to reject the expert report’s advice on convergence criteria, and set up their own criteria specifically “so that countries like Portugal and Greece can join the euro almost immediately”. This I have from the Chair of the commission on the euro, about the reasons for rejecting their recommendations.

      Nevertheless, having made a terrible error of judgement in 1998, Europe’s politicians proceeded to do so again after the financial crash. And they repeat their buffoonery, endlessly. All the while blaming the Greek people (who decided and did nothing) and not the Greek politicians who mismanaged Greece: these crooks have been put in power yet again. I emphasise: Greece’s political elite is in power primarily because of northern Europe’s interference. Yet it is the ordinary Greek who is suffering, having no culpability in the matter. The only logical conclusion is that northern European politicians do not intend to be held to account for their incompetence, and they do not wish Greek politicians to be either. Ergo, they oppose the democratic system.

      @Martin (Holland); Thank you for the replies. We seem to be in agreement.

    • Martin

      I will make it as simple as possible for you.
      You have no right to demand anything from Greece no matter her problems. These problems are internal. The problems of the crisis have nothing to do with Greece. If the transfers were controlled as they should have been ,you couldn’t care less about the problems in Greece.

      The European management of the system is NOT a Greek problem.
      And the debt didn’t stimulate the Greek economy because these money never arrived for use from Greece as the transfers were uncontrolled and just vanished. Period.

      Tjhere was not any party in Greece as quality of life kept dropping in Greece for the average person.

      I won’t say more because you already know them. You just choose to LIE.

  • Something is going wrong. Maybe I posted two times. Please, delete the first posting. (And this one)

  • Delete them all if you wanted. (20:05, 20:03, 19:37)I will post in the right position as a reply. This stuff..I got my first computer when I was 50! Sorry for the trouble. I am real stupid whit this kind of thinks.
    Best regards,
    Martin Vleeskruijer, Holland.

  • No EU dictatorship, sure you want a German dictatorship.
    The countries that you like doing business with are just the countries that helped collect the Jews and send them to Germany for elimination. Because the nature of this holy union is to hate somebody or to have somebody that they think is inferior to them so all those countries substituted Jews with Roma and because Germans don’t have too many Roma to hate so the Greeks are substituting the Jews for their hatred. You forgot to mention that the Germans bought the majority of the newspapers of those countries to make sure that the population will follow the line that brought the first and second European manslaughter.
    Yes I agree with you that you should have you own Holy Unroman Empire and leave the other folks in piece. The problem is that Americans don’t want any country in Europe to be too strong, England doesn’t want it either, neither does France. If you don’t see that what you want is a repetition of what happened before you just are a bad student.
    Maybe you don’t realize that inflicting pain to folks that are not up to industrial strength of Germans is just a crime not a help.
    Please get out of Europe. You don’t belong there.

    • “Yes I agree with you that you should have you own Holy Unroman Empire and leave the other folks in piece”

      Do not worry we will leave yo in one piece and also in peace.

      Inflicting pain? So So destabilizing a currency by acting irresponsibly like GR, ES etc. is not inflicting pain?

    • n eu d

      You acted irresponsibly too. On a European level. The only difference is ,you have all the power and money. And now your irresponsibility continues by manipulating the flow even more than before.

      Power comes with responsibility. Either leave Europe and abandon the power you now have or become responsible managers.

    • Sory we do not have any money. Only worthless claims against the ECB (bad bank run by the ClubMed)

    • So what about these deficits?

      Are you acting like an agent of your government?
      The crisis is a German management crisis. And when i say German i do not mean the people.

      You have still not escaped the media propaganda.
      Do not take it that personally.
      Once more. The elite DO NOT HAVE nationality.

  • The view is always clearer from outside:

    “Another week, another summit. This week’s shindig of EU leaders in Brussels will be bound to focus on efforts to shore up the euro. Once again, it is likely to disappoint. The main issue is well-known; bailouts for indigent, non-tax-paying southerners at the expense of hard-working northerners”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/rogerbootle/9384903/However-many-bailouts-the-eurozone-will-soon-be-the-twilight-zone.html

  • To: No EU dictatorship, Very serious Sam.
    Greece does not have a power to destabilize anything. The problem with Greece is that is not at the same level of development as Germany is. Weakness is not nice but hardly a crime. Germany decided to inflict pain to the whole population of Greece just because we are not thinking and acting as Germans do. I have news for you people we are not really Germans, we don’t have the German discipline, and we think differently than the Germans and we are not racists. But we know facts as they are, not as translated by some German newspapers.
    You guys if you are Germans or not, if you are paid to do it or not, you already threw so much mud on every living and dead Greek that you already spent half the earth doing it.
    You are probably very young, but I am not. I saw what happened in the past with my own eyes, you grandfather probably killed first my dog and after that he startied burning every single house in my village including the church and the school. So if you take my house, my inheritance from both grandparents, the portion of the school and the church and if you add 5% for 67 years of no payment you owe me big. If you don’t know how to calculate it ask somebody who does. You will be surprised.
    You lent money to Greek politicians that probably were in your payroll. You didn’t lend any money to me or to any living or dead member of my family. Nothing, zero. We never asked.
    As I said you are probably professional mud throwers. No I didn’t know about Godwin’s law, I looked it up in Wikipedia, such laws don’t really exist.
    I still thing that you should get out of Europe. You are dangerous to Europe and dangerous to yourselves. Create your own kingdom and eat all the bradbursts in the world.

    • “Germany decided to inflict pain to the whole population of Greece just because we are not thinking and acting as Germans do. ”

      Your government chose to stay in the Euro area. The options were there, they chose hardship and Euro over quick pain and Drachme & recovery.

    • Demetre,

      Germany will get what it wanted. i could read In ekathimerini. com that the Dutch company Unilever will extend in Greece and close elsewhere in Europe a.o. in Germany.
      When incomes and cost must be decreased more than in other countries, you can expect that production will go to the cheaper places. Germany required Greece to have extreme low wages and costs and Germany can get the bill from now for that demand.

      I thought that Germany was warned for these consequences of its extreme requirements.

      Source: http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_28/06/2012_449602

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